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Hmmmm. I had over 50 page views, but no takers on the question. Let me try to narrow the focus of the question a bit.
I have heard many, many people say this. "It's not God I have a problem with...it's Christians". Why is that? Are you expecting perfection? Do you expect us to live at a higher level of morality, integrity etc than we are? Do you see us as accurately portraying Jesus? After all, it is His name we bear. CHRISTians.
What about the church? Is it all about the money? Is it full of hypocrites? Are we accomplishing any good?
Okay Christians. What do you think about these same questions? How would you respond honestly to these questions?
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I can't speak for other people but the main problem I have with Christians is that the ones I meet are irrational in certain areas. I have met Christians who are perfectly intelligent but then tell them about something scientific that might contradict with their religion and watch them throw their intelligence right out the door. Another problem I have is that it is hard to ascertain what the real Christian beliefs are since there are so many different sects. So you talk to one and they say they are fine with evolution and others are unequivocally against it due to their belief. I have more for your other questions but I decided to leave it at this for now.
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, when I refer to Chrisians it would be in the context of "fundamental Chrisitianity". Belief in the Deity of Christ, the virgin birth, etc. I don't know of too many Christians in this category who would be "okay" with evolution. But maybe I'm wrong and if so your point is well taken because in these issues there should be now differences of opinion.
DeleteI too have thought a lot about intellegience versus faith. I personally have had to come to the point that if the Bible CLEARLY says that, for instance the world was CREATED by God, then I MUST chose to believe that, otherwise why believe anything else the Bible says. Picking and choosing is not an option. By it's very definition faith is often a belief in something unprovable. That is at times very difficult for us logical, intelligent creatures.
Michael, how do you reconcile the conflict between accepted scientific consensus (i.e. evolution by natural selection and your religious beliefs? Am I correct in understanding your above comment to mean that will choose to disbelieve any scientific fact that contradicts what the Bible says (for example, scientists tell us that there was never a time on earth when humans lived and yet there were no rainbows)?
ReplyDelete... otherwise why believe anything else the Bible says. Good comment - think about that. Then ask any geologist or astrophysicist how old the earth is.
ReplyDeleteI don't think evolution is a very strong point to base your opinion on as it takes as much faith to believe in that as it does in creation. However, I'm willing to consider your question on rainbows as valid (even though I never heard this) or the age of the earth. I don't want to argue for or against them BECAUSE NEITHER ONE IS PROVEABLE. We weren't there. And scientist have made many mistakes over the centuries.
DeleteSo my question remains. If you won't believe the Bible in all things, why believe any of it?
DeleteI would rather see people discount it completely instead of picking and choosing the things they like and only believing those things.
So why do you think so many "Christians" only want to take from the Bible the things that appeal to them? They will gladly claim any promise that has to do with healing and discount completely anything that has to do with how they treat others, or forgiveness, or giving money to the poor.
Well see I think your comparison between the creation story and evolution is lacking. The creation story only tells us that God created all things but neglects to tell us how he did it. Evolution answers the question that the creation story used to answer before 1858 (when Darwin and Wallace published papers on evolution). The question being how do you explain the complexity that exists in nature? Evolution has given us a beautiful explanation for that complexity with not only fossil evidence but with DNA evidence and also protein analysis whereas the creation story still leaves us wanting because it simply states that God did it.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I think that people want to pick and choose from the Bible is due to the many atrocities that exist in the Bible (incest, genocide, slavery, etc.). They want to separate themselves from these things because the Bible does not explicitly condemn them, and if it does it will then turn around and celebrate them only a few verses later. Which might be an even bigger problem since the Bible has so many contradictions.
Although I respect your interest in arguing for or againt the authority of the Bible, the accuracy of Darwinism etc., this is actually outside the intent of this blog. I am a comitted Christian (for better or for worse), I have determined to believe the Bible (all of it, for better or for worse). What does concern me is that there are many people who call themselves Christians and yet often do not want to follow the instructions in the Bible. It is my opinion that the Name of Christ is being downgraded because of us. What I'm really looking for is honest opinions from non christians about this. Are we, because of our actions, keeping you from believing in Jesus? In a prior post you commented on a book suggesting that we need to listen more and that often we are willing to loudly stand on our opinions. (All this is very true) Are we willing to just as loudly by our actions stand on those opinions? Are we willing to forgive? to love unconditionally? to give freely? just as the Bible gives clear instruction on. If not, what does that say to you non christians? Do you question the validity of our faith because of this? If we lived this kind of life, would you be more interested in finding out why we do?
DeleteWhat do you, my fellow Believers say to this? Do you ever stop to think that our actions speak louder than words? Maybe you are living the "Life" in Christ, do you see my questions as reason for concern in the Church?
In order to be a fundamentalist Christian and accept the events in the Bible as having happened as described, one must be wilfully blind. Most Christians are too intellectually honest to ignore facts which cannot seriously be refuted (such as the earth being billions, rather than only thousands, of years old). They are still fond of the humanist aspects of Christianity and prefer not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. However, when pushed to make an election as to whether to believe everything in the Bible or none of it, most opt for the second showcase. If you can live in the year 2012 and still belive in Noah's ark, a virgin giving birth and zombies walking through Jerusalem, there is nothing I can do for you. As Thomas Paine famously observed: to argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
ReplyDeleteYou have some very well thought out arguments and if I was interested in debating these points with you I would find you to be a challenging oponent. But sadly this is not the case. I am more than willing to give you the last word on this subject. Someday we will know who is right and who is wrong, but then it will be too late to matter.
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